Starter / Alternator Problem?

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Starter / Alternator Problem?

Postby JumpJunky on Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:40 pm

The starter on my '04 Metro took a poop. I turn on the key, hear the clicking, and it will kickstart fine. However, the starter motor doesn't turn over the engine. All that happens is the relay for the starter clicks.

I've swapped the relay (on the fuse panel) with one from my other met. Still the same.

Swapped the battery with my other met.

While running, the voltage never goes up (checked with meter) - telling me the stator isn't charging the battery.

So, I'm pretty sure it's the stator.

Anyone else have this problem? Any suggestions?

Thanks!

JJ
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Re: Starter / Alternator Problem?

Postby Huey on Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:19 am

You can check the charging coil as follows:
Remove the luggage box. Disconnect the alternator/starter 3 wire (black) connector.
Measure the resistance between each wire on the alternator side of the connector. The standard resistance is 0.5 ohms.
Check for continuity between each wire on the stator side of the connector and ground. There should be NO continuity.
The manual says to replace the alternator stator if resistance is out of spec. or if any wire has continuity to ground.
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Re: Starter / Alternator Problem?

Postby JumpJunky on Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:23 am

Checked the alternator and everything checks out within specification (resistance and no continuity to ground). What is weird is 2 things. I've tried 'starting' the engine with the connector unplugged. I get no voltage reading coming from the battery side. I also then start the engine and get no voltage reading from the engine side! Weird....

I swapped ECM's with my good, starting scoot. Still the same.

My next step will be to swap stators. Before I do all of this - does the service manual suggest anything else? A bad relay or switch somewhere? I swapped rrelays right by the positive battery terminal.

thanks!
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Re: Starter / Alternator Problem?

Postby Huey on Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:57 pm

I've checked my manual & I can't find anything else to check. It sounds like you've swapped both the main relay & the starting relay. Since you can kick start it, most of the circuits must be working.

The manual describes the the alternator/starter as: The alternator acts as a three phase AC generator. The alternator/starter also functions as a starter motor by applying current to the stator coil from the ECM to turn the flywheel.
An angle sensor is attached to the stator to detect crankshaft position.Signals from a magnet that is integrated in the outer circumference of the flywheel boss are received by the sensor and sent to the ECM. The ECM adjusts current to the stator coil to turn the flywheel when starting, and to increase charging current under 3500 rpm to enhance the charging capability.

I'm not sure if you could get a reading with the connector unplugged. The ECM needs all kinds of input. Perhaps you can probe the connector with a pin when it is connected.

Don't give up.
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Re: Starter / Alternator Problem?

Postby JumpJunky on Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:04 pm

There are TWO relays? I only know of the one by the positive batter terminal. Where is the other?

The flywheel sensor COULD be a culprit, as well.... got me thinking now.

SOMETIMES, it will turn over about a revolution or so. IF the sensor isn't being triggered, maybe the ECM is stopping it?

The scoot is at my cottage. I will be checking it this weekend.

Thanks for the help!

JJ
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Re: Starter / Alternator Problem?

Postby vulcan on Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:43 pm

I am so tempted to say something here, but since it wouldn't be helpful, I won't. Best of luck with your problem. Jerry.
2002 Kawasaki Vulcan 750, 2013 Royal Enfield B5, 2001 Yamaha XT225, 2009 Genuine Stella, 2012 Yamaha Zuma 125, 1980 Puch Newport
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Re: Starter / Alternator Problem?

Postby Huey on Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:56 am

The relay by the fuse box is the starter relay. There is a main relay next to the ECM.
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Re: Starter / Alternator Problem?

Postby yoeman on Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:02 am

hi my 2003 met has no power to any items and all it does is click at the main relay. Its almost like a short in the bike, it has no spark and wont turn over at all with the starter. It wont start with the kick start either. I purchased this bike as a non runner thinking it might be an easy fix now im thinking im in trouble. What was the issue with youre bike?

Im jumping it with the main battery removed Could this be the main relay or starter relay and would that kill all the power to the other items (Lights, horn etc)??
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Re: Starter / Alternator Problem?

Postby scout1 on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:40 am

I am not an electrical engineer. I am not any kind of engineer. Try this at your own risk.
My 05 Met II also suffered from the dreaded "siesta syndrome". Perfectly healthy, just did not want to work.
I followed the schematics in the Honda shop manual and came to the conclusion the main relay was not getting energized. That is the relay tucked in behind the ECM . I looked high and low for the reason, fuse, wire, bad battery bus connector. Thought it might be a diode in the main relay that was not holding the relay closed. Relay tested good. Could not locate the problem. Finally decided to route around the whole circuit and power the main relay from the battery positive pole. I ran a jumper from the pos pole on the battery to the red/green connector wire on the main relay. Viola. Power everywhere. Lights, horn, starter. Life is good. That is how I run it now. It bypasses the ignition key circuit. All I have to do is hook the alligator clip to a crimp connector that is attached to the pos battery pole.
I spent hours trying to trouble shoot this problem. Had very knowledgeable other people take a look. There is basically no way to trouble shoot the ECMs individual internal circuits as with a code reader. You trouble shoot the component at the other end of the wiring, the wiring itself, and if they are good then Honda assumes it is the ECM. I may have a problem with an internal short in the ECM, I don't know. I don't care. I spent hours going thru every wire in the main harness, the start cirucit, the ignition key circuit, replaced the main relay because it was the cheapest component. Still did not solve the problem. My reroute did solve the problem. Works wonderfully. Make sure you have a good secure connection since the jumper runs directly off the battery the potential current draw can be high. With a poor connection you will either burn up the wire or the alligator clip will get so hot as to cause a very bad burn on your fingers when you touch it to disconnect. You need to disconnect when you park the scooter because the whole electrical system is powered continuously. But at least the sucka runs and I ride.
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